Discussion:
Company beats Tesla with Hydrogen trucks!
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JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-14 22:55:24 UTC
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/04/14/can-a-15-billion-bet-on-fuel-cell-big-rigs-be-a-game-changer-for-hydrogen/#64346a59fe4c

I hate to admit it but, hydrogen makes way more sense!

Put tax cuts or cash subsidies on gas stations that also have
at least one hydrogen pump and it'll spark so many hydrogen
powered trucks (and cars) that we may face a hydrogen
shortage...

(This can't work for EVs because they take almost an hour
to charge)

And the hydrogen is made with electricity, which apparently
comes from mushroom fairies, or at least according to the
EV fans, so it's 837% "carbon free."

Right?

EVs have been and are a travesty. They have taken money
from people who needed it and given it to people who don't
need it -- and all to avoid any benefit what so ever to the
environment.



...and I hate to sound like a broken record but we could
have achieved WAY more "Carbon" savings a hell of a lot
quicker, and at practically zero cost, if we had just upped our
fuel economy standards across the board (including light
trucks & SUVs) a mere 10%. Double the number of plug-ins
and we'd still achieve more with the increase in fuel economy
standards.

EVs are a distraction. They're a great way to make it appear as
if you're doing something, even when you're hurting instead of
helping a situation.





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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/184161812658
Bret Cahill
2019-04-15 02:04:02 UTC
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Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/04/14/can-a-15-billion-bet-on-fuel-cell-big-rigs-be-a-game-changer-for-hydrogen/#64346a59fe4c
I hate to admit it but, hydrogen makes way more sense!
Put tax cuts or cash subsidies on gas stations that also have
at least one hydrogen pump and it'll spark so many hydrogen
powered trucks (and cars) that we may face a hydrogen
shortage...
(This can't work for EVs because they take almost an hour
to charge)
Ever try to get a trucker in and out of a truck stop in less than an hour?

Fueling speed may not be the biggest factor. Every trip is planned.
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
And the hydrogen is made with electricity,
The additional steps/complexity is often worf it in the long run.
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
EVs have been and are a travesty. They have taken money
from people who needed it and given it to people who don't
need it
Eggactly why you need to be paid the loot collected from a carbon tax per Milton Friedman!

Let free marketry figger out what is low carbon.

Ain't no one smart enough to do that spread sheet.
JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-15 02:50:13 UTC
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Post by Bret Cahill
Ever try to get a trucker in and out of a truck stop in less than an hour?
If it takes a compact car an hour to charge, imagine a tractor trailer
dragging 40 tons...

But you ask the wrong question. So, I put it to you again:

Imagine if all the money that went into subsidizing EVs went instead into
subsidizing the availability of hydrogen as a fuel? For instance, if the
exact same dollar amount that was wasted on manufacturers & buyers of
EVs went to gas stations which offer hydrogen fuel pumps in addition to
gasoline/deisel?

Yes, there would be quite a lot MORE "alternative" fuel cars on our
roads today, and our cities would have cleaner air...

Such an incentive can't work for EVs to anywhere near the extant because
it takes close to an hour to recharge a Tesla, using their special double
potent recharge stations...




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/184161766088
danny burstein
2019-04-15 03:09:36 UTC
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Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
Post by Bret Cahill
Ever try to get a trucker in and out of a truck stop in less than an hour?
If it takes a compact car an hour to charge, imagine a tractor trailer
dragging 40 tons...
Wouldn't take any longer... just a Bigger Wire coming in
to the truck. And a MUCH Bigger Wire to the charging
facility.
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
it takes close to an hour to recharge a Tesla, using their special double
potent recharge stations...
That's recharging from scratch. Which is certainl
a valid measurement, but... many people would swing
to a charging station when only 25 pct down, so to
speak, and "topping up".
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JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-15 03:37:39 UTC
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Post by danny burstein
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
If it takes a compact car an hour to charge, imagine a tractor trailer
dragging 40 tons...
Wouldn't take any longer... just a Bigger Wire coming in
to the truck. And a MUCH Bigger Wire to the charging
facility.
Then you'd fry out the cars!
Post by danny burstein
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
it takes close to an hour to recharge a Tesla, using their special double
potent recharge stations...
That's recharging from scratch. Which is certainl
a valid measurement, but... many people would swing
to a charging station when only 25 pct down, so to
speak, and "topping up".
The real point isn't how long it would take, it's all the other
things we could have done for the same money OR LESS,
and achieved more than we have with the EV subsidies.

Number-One on my list is still the ZERO COST proverbial
stroke of a pen: An immediate & across the board 10%
increase in fuel economy. Here in the U.S. there is plenty
of room for double that...

I didn't pay much attention during my last trip to Europe
but, back in 2005 I recall how every other car in London
(to turn a phrase) was a 1-liter.

...here in the U.S., on the other hand, GM refuses to even
offer their small pickup truck for sale. They've been waiting
for the oil crash all these years. For real. They're not going to
be able to sell small, inexpensive pickup trucks NOW only to
jack up the prices post crash. That'll just drive the customers
away. At the same time, offering a low priced small truck now
would steal sales away from the more expensive large trucks.

Solution? Don't even offer it!

They make one or more, they've been selling them across the
border in Mexico all along but, they won't sell them here. Not
yet. Of course, if we hit them with fuel economy demands they
may have no choice but to offer a smaller, lighter & more
fuel efficient truck...

Google: Chevy Tornado

It used to be the Montana and before that... I dunno. But they
don't offer them here. They have steadfastly refused.




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Bret Cahill
2019-04-15 03:50:46 UTC
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Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
Then you'd fry out the cars!
Eggzactly why you ain't designin nuthin fer anyone.
Bret Cahill
2019-04-15 03:49:02 UTC
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Better still just take your "green dividend" from Milton Friedman's tax on carbon & let markets decide.
JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-15 04:17:35 UTC
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Post by Bret Cahill
Better still just take your "green dividend" from Milton Friedman's tax on carbon
I don't give a shit about carbon and I unsubscribed to the
"Global Warming" mythology years ago.

Funny how all the money heaped in plug-ins was okay, but the
moment we start talking about switching that money to things
that actually work it's "TAX THE AIR!"

We don't need taxes. We simply take the money from where the
wind, solar & plug-ins were getting all their incentives/subsidies.
We move it from them to actual solutions.





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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/184161812658
Bret Cahill
2019-04-15 04:46:59 UTC
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Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
I don't give a shit about carbon
Then Y is U postin here?
JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-15 05:16:57 UTC
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Post by Bret Cahill
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
I don't give a shit about carbon
Then Y is U postin here?
Seriously, I know you're a mentally disturbed troll
but do you honestly think that works? The huge volume
of shit-posting, the "Y is U" nonsense... you think
that can impress anyone?

Anyone dumb enough to be impressed with you would have
to be too busy guzzling down the "Global Warming Koolade
to even read you in the first place.





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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/183882736683
George
2019-04-15 03:09:39 UTC
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On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 19:04:02 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Bret Cahill
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/04/14/can-a-15-billion-bet-on-fuel-cell-big-rigs-be-a-game-changer-for-hydrogen/#64346a59fe4c
I hate to admit it but, hydrogen makes way more sense!
Put tax cuts or cash subsidies on gas stations that also have
at least one hydrogen pump and it'll spark so many hydrogen
powered trucks (and cars) that we may face a hydrogen
shortage...
(This can't work for EVs because they take almost an hour
to charge)
Ever try to get a trucker in and out of a truck stop in less than an hour?
Fueling speed may not be the biggest factor. Every trip is planned.
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
And the hydrogen is made with electricity,
Apparently the poster forgets the Hindenberg


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JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-15 03:45:20 UTC
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Post by George
Apparently the poster forgets the Hindenberg


They're cherry picking but, there's really very little risk. If it won't
squash a gasoline tank it has no hope of poking holes in a
hydrogen tank.



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George
2019-04-15 20:19:19 UTC
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On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
Post by George
Apparently the poster forgets the Hindenberg
http://youtu.be/IknzEAs34r0
They're cherry picking but, there's really very little risk. If it
won't squash a gasoline tank it has no hope of poking holes in a
hydrogen tank.
Not so much the vehicles fuel tank (apart from accident impacts and
vehicle fires) but the storage at the refueling depot.



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JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
2019-04-15 22:09:56 UTC
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Post by George
Not so much the vehicles fuel tank (apart from accident impacts and
vehicle fires) but the storage at the refueling depot.
I believe the storage would be safer than onboard a car, as size and
weight are such an issue there...

My biggest concern would be transport. Does it get delivered as
liquid hydrogen? Or under pressure in a tanker truck? Or do they
produce the hydrogen right on site?




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/184207504573
Bret Cahill
2019-04-15 22:57:43 UTC
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Post by George
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
Post by George
Apparently the poster forgets the Hindenberg
http://youtu.be/IknzEAs34r0
They're cherry picking but, there's really very little risk. If it
won't squash a gasoline tank it has no hope of poking holes in a
hydrogen tank.
Not so much the vehicles fuel tank (apart from accident impacts and
vehicle fires) but the storage at the refueling depot.
If H2 gas made such an easy bomb you would expect to see it used more in fuel air explosives. A fugitive gas doesn't settle settle on the warehouse floor like LPG. It transpires outside quickly, why they want to use H2 in fork lifts.

Many argue against H2 because of the low efficiency of electrolysis and therefore high energy cost/km using H2: Charging a Li-Ion battery takes 1/8th the electricity of H2 made from 24/7 grid power on a /km basis.

A fuel cell uses 8X more electricity than Li-Ion on a /km basis.



That all assumes the electricity must come from 24/7 grid power at today's rates, a bad assumption.

The cost of PV, at least in some places, is 1/8th the cost of today's 24/7 grid.

This lowers the cost of charging the EV a similar %, but compared to the over all cost, dropping the absolute cost from low to almost nothing probably will not be enough to matter.

Energy costs would then be pretty negligible compared to the capital cost for either Li-Ion _or_ FC.

All that would matter is the capital cost.

There may be other arguments against fuel cells, high expense, high maintenance.
George
2019-04-16 03:01:55 UTC
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On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Bret Cahill
Post by George
Post by JTEM is Remarkably Flexible
Post by George
Apparently the poster forgets the Hindenberg
http://youtu.be/IknzEAs34r0
They're cherry picking but, there's really very little risk. If it
won't squash a gasoline tank it has no hope of poking holes in a
hydrogen tank.
Not so much the vehicles fuel tank (apart from accident impacts and
vehicle fires) but the storage at the refueling depot.
If H2 gas made such an easy bomb you would expect to see it used more
in fuel air explosives. A fugitive gas doesn't settle settle on the
warehouse floor like LPG. It transpires outside quickly, why they
want to use H2 in fork lifts.
Many argue against H2 because of the low efficiency of electrolysis
and therefore high energy cost/km using H2: Charging a Li-Ion
battery takes 1/8th the electricity of H2 made from 24/7 grid power
on a /km basis.
A fuel cell uses 8X more electricity than Li-Ion on a /km basis.
http://youtu.be/f7MzFfuNOtY
That all assumes the electricity must come from 24/7 grid power at
today's rates, a bad assumption.
The cost of PV, at least in some places, is 1/8th the cost of today's 24/7 grid.
This lowers the cost of charging the EV a similar %, but compared to
the over all cost, dropping the absolute cost from low to almost
nothing probably will not be enough to matter.
Energy costs would then be pretty negligible compared to the capital
cost for either Li-Ion _or_ FC.
All that would matter is the capital cost.
There may be other arguments against fuel cells, high expense, high maintenance.
A curious way to spell CNG or in one case LPG


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